We had the opportunity to converse with Alfie Kohn through correspondence.

Why do you think so many families are in need of guidance and have lost touch with what it means to be a parent?

To say they’ve lost touch is to imply they once had it.  That may be true for some people but not for others.  It may be that parenting is harder today than it once was or that parents have been led to distrust their instincts more than used to be the case.  Then again it may be that parents are more open today to soliciting advice and that’s a good thing because parents of yesteryear needed help, too, but were reluctant to ask for it.  What matters most, I think, is what kind of guidance parents are likely to get when they do ask.  If it’s just more techniques for making kids do whatever they’re told, then we still have a problem.

Do you think a large part of the issue is the way that the American schooling system has been created around a culture of consumerism, passivity and rote learning?

I think those are bad things, but if by “the issue” you’re referring to the reasons parents may be struggling, then I’d have to be convinced that there’s a cause-and-effect relationship.

Do you think that technology or what society accepts as proper child behavior and proper parent behavior has a negative effect on parents and children and that for these reason families are experiencing more issues that need more intervention?

I don’t have the expertise to comment usefully on the role of technology.  As for social norms regarding children and parenting, yes, I do believe they help to drive a mindset where short-term compliance (which we try to secure through bribes and threats) eclipses the question of what helps kids to become good people.  I write about those norms, along with other explanations, in a chapter in Unconditional Parenting called “What Holds Us Back?”

What do you think the important next steps are to make sure that more parents take more time to be with their children, taking the time to experience real things with their kids, like spending time outdoors, playing, discovering, asking questions, etc?

There’s a bunch of problems here, each with its own set of possible causes.  Many parents don’t have enough time for their children (or for themselves) because of work-related demands.  If you have to work two jobs, if there’s more pressure on employees at each of those jobs, then we’re talking about issues that go well beyond a philosophy of parenting.  The mindset that parents adopt when they are with their children, such as an openness to discovering the world together and playing, touches on all kinds of beliefs that parents may have about raising and educating kids – beliefs that correlate with social class and parents’ own level of education, incidentally.  Then again, parents of all classes may be so focused on their children’s achievement – in the narrowest sense of that word – that they overlook the other kinds of development that need to be supported:  emotional, social, artistic, physical, and so on.  Finally, if schools are forcing children to work what amounts to a second shift after they get home – despite the lack of evidence that homework is beneficial – that’s going to cut into time for other good stuff and stoke parents’ insecurities.

What would you say to families who are totally dedicated to one specific parenting style and can’t see how other methods may be more effective or that others’ way of doing things may also be valid? 

That depends on how broadly or narrowly we’re defining “parenting style.”  If we mean this in a narrow sense of specific strategies, then I agree with what I take to be the premise of your question:  We ought to be open to challenging ourselves to try new possibilities.  But if what I describe as “working with” parenting – where the point is to solve problems together rather than doing things TO children to make them obey us – is the style someone has in mind, then I’d have to be convinced that a different, more traditional and authoritarian, style is ever beneficial.  I’m not a relativist who believes that anything we do with kids is legitimate, and being respectful and unconditionally loving are just options that work for some people, while other people prefer a different way.  I think all children deserve those fundamental approaches.  But there’s an enormous range of possibilities within those basic approaches.

You have suggested that parents tend to say No far too often and have recommended that they offer choices instead.  Can you say more about that?

In Unconditional Parenting I suggest that parents try not to “stick their no’s in unnecessarily.”  I think we say no far too often, partly for our own convenience and partly because of our exaggerated fear of permissiveness.  But it’s hard for me to imagine never saying no, and that’s certainly not a stance I’ve ever advocated....    I think what’s most important, though, is to avoid falling into that familiar false dichotomy:  either we never say no and let kids do whatever they want, or we revert to traditional patterns of control (in the name of “limits” and “boundaries”)....    What I try to do is suggest other possibilities altogether.

Are boundaries important?  Not only in life threatening situation, but to live well in a society?

Yes, but.  The first “but”:  we want kids to participate in thinking about those boundaries so they can become responsible decision makers rather than assuming a boundary is something that must be imposed ON them.  The late Thomas Gordon, of Parent Effectiveness Training fame, said it well:  The question isn’t whether limits and rules are sometimes necessary; it’s “who sets them – the adults alone or the adults and kids together.”  The second “but” is that smooth functioning in our society as it currently exists – adaptation, if you will – is commonly used as a justification for all manner of control-oriented parenting and schooling.  I worry a bit about kids who can’t cope with compromise and make their way in the world.  I worry a lot more about the far greater number of people who do nothing but compromise, who accept our social norms and institutions as “just the way life is” and raise their kids to fit in rather than to question and work to make change where it’s needed.

Here at OutdoorBaby.net, we work hard at promoting the idea that spending time outdoors with our children is healthy and enables families to grow positively together.  We use the outdoors as a vehicle to teach children about the different skills needed to be successful in life.  Nature is a great teacher.  Speaking with Alfie Kohn, who is not an expert on outdoor activities with children, was for us a way to underscore the broader truth that raising children and providing them with rich life experiences takes thought, dedication, love and reflection.  In this interview Alfie Kohn shares with all of you some of his ideas on how we can work towards creating positive environments for our children.  We realize that even if children never spend a minute outdoors with their parents, but that they are supported, listened to and loved, they will continue to be the wonderful persons they were born to be.

In our next article we will publish an excerpt from Alfie Kohn’s book Unconditional Parenting and a previously published interview that introduces readers to the basic ideas that he presents in his book.

Alfie Kohn’s books are available anywhere books are sold and more information can be found at www.alfiekohn.org

Heidi Ahrens

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