OutdoorBaby.net interviewed Naomi Aldort on a cold winter day.  Since the conversation was inspiring and energizing, we decided to publish the entire interview.  Part 1 touches on basic parenting aspects and the importance of including nature in your children’s lives. Part 2 will cover schooling and un-schooling practices.  We hope you will be warmed up and revitalized as parents once you read these articles during this particularly cold winter.

Can you give me a summary of what you think a healthy family looks like and what healthy parenting looks like?

There is not just one healthy way, but love is the main ingredient.  We do not get any sway by trying to control.  For me, the word love includes simply being responsive in a loving way. I have a video on YouTube called “The Child is Right”.  When people ask me – should the child be doing this or that?  Isn’t it better if he does this?  I say – no, what’s better is that he does what he does and how you know where he should be and what he should do is by looking at him. If the baby wants to breastfeed, that tells you – yeah, you should breastfeed.  Healthy living is simply living in a way that’s a lot less stressful.  It’s peaceful.  It’s just live life and let it be.  Let it lead you.  Don’t fight against it.  In this culture, that’s easy to say, but it’s not so easy to do because the culture at large does exactly the opposite.  The whole culture is about:  how do I fight it and make it be about the way I want.  How do I train the child to sleep by themselves?  How do I wean them before they wean themselves?  How do I make them do chores?  How do I make them learn this?  How do I make the child say please and thank you?  What I teach goes contrary to all of that because I’m saying – let the child grow the way nature designed and just be the model because they want to be like you and they want to fit in.  Let them observe nature and observe you and observe connections and animals and living beings and see how it’s all connected and they come to their own wonderful conclusions and they don’t have a reason to go against anything because they didn’t experience an unhealthy relationship in which somebody goes against them.  You know, in school and in most parenting books and classes, they teach you a better way to make the child do what you want.  While I teach a better way for you to understand what the child needs and arrange life such that the child would want to do what’s best.  Children behave well on their own free will not because they’re coerced or manipulated.

When you started talking, you said there’s not one perfect way to parent.  To be a bit of the devil’s advocate, there are experts out there who would completely contradict what you just said.  How can we be open to other ways of parenting, yet feel like our way ( being outdoors or attachment parenting)  is the right way?

That’s a very good question. I think if a child feels love and connected to parents, then that particular detail is not as crucial as you may think.  You know, Einstein grew up in the city.  Charlie Chaplin grew up in the city.  He didn’t go to school because there was no money. He was working in the streets at age 8 with his brother selling newspapers.   Just being on concrete streets, no nature, no nothing.  Einstein had a better upbringing: well to do people, cultural and musical and scientific; but still, city living.  So, I stay away from saying in that sense that there has to be one way.  In terms of love and response to the child, the more you do that the better. I’ve become very tolerant because of the depth of my experiences.   I have seen people grow up in families that don’t do attachment parenting, but what they do, they do with so much love and conviction that the child gets it that they are loved.  So, the child may sleep in a separate bed, but the mom is there when the baby cries.  She picks him up.  They don’t know another way.  They don’t know they could sleep right next to mommy, but they do know – I’m loved.  So, in other words, I’m saying – let’s not be addicted and attached to the technicalities of what makes that love.  Because it just isn’t true.  I didn’t sleep with my parents and I turned out pretty good, and I’m a loving, sane person.  I’m a happy, capable parent and all that.  So, we need to be very flexible to allow different people their path.  I don’t endorse people hitting their children, but people who hit their children are doing it because they’re helpless and they don’t know another way.  So, when they call me and say  “ I’m hitting my child and I don’t want to do it” .  I help them work with themselves and getting to that place of love and that place of trusting, there’s nothing to be angry at the child, the child is doing what he’s supposed to do.  Which is why we have a long way to go to learn and to grow with our children.  Another healthy aspect of parenting and family is to keep learning.  I would say – yes, people who raise their children and don’t even try to learn and are sure they know, and do things that do harm, you know, we can’t go judge.  They are innocent.  They don’t know that they don’t know.

Also I’m reminded also of Leo Buscaglia, the author of the book Love and some other wonderful books.  A very loving leader in the area of human potential.  He said in one of his books on his own personal life, when asked where he grew up, how his parents acted with him, that he grew up in a traditional Italian family.  They were spanked, they were punished and with all that other old fashioned stuff.  And he said – you know, I don’t see the big harm; I knew my parents loved me;  we had an absolutely connected loving family;  I always knew that I was so important to them and that they loved me.  So, when I hear something like that from a man who is obviously so emotionally healthy and capable, it makes you really spread and be flexible and realize that the human capacity for feeling worthy and loved is much bigger than you think.

 It’s like children have an almost psychic ability to know that they are loved in spite of their parents mistakes. Each child is different.  You know, some adults I treat had relatively good lives and yet they have all these emotional problems because they saw it in a bigger way.  That’s where we also have to remember that we don’t have control.  There are a lot of things that are out of our hands and we do the best we can.  When you ask the question which  style of parenting is the right one, I don’t say this is the right one.  I say – love and responsiveness is what nourishes relationships and connections and that can be done in a variety of ways.

There are so many books and resources and websites dedicated to supporting families, why do you think that families need that much guidance, and why have parents have lost touch with what it means to be a parent?

  I don’t know that they have lost touch.  We don’t know that.  We weren’t there in the old days and I don’t know that parents had more good instincts, at least in the West.  I think in Aboriginal societies from reports that I read, and again, I can only know it from reading, there are some more natural instincts.  But, in the West, the instincts don’t look good when I look at history,  looking at how children were raised 200 years ago, 300 years ago, 100 years ago.  It wasn’t that great.  You can see through history, you know: the Inquisition and Nazism wouldn’t come out of good upbringing.  In many ways, it’s improving.  Actually, there is more respect for children.  There’s the International document of the Rights of the Child that only Somalia and the United States didn’t sign so far.

I don’t think there is a going downhill: I think there is a going uphill in parenting.  More and more understanding that children need to choose their own path and need to be respected.  There’s a deep return to more natural ways and attachment parenting and slings instead of strollers.  You see more and more parents holding their babies, nursing the babies.  So, all in all, I think we’re on an upward trend toward better parenting even though the numbers are not yet great.  But, they are growing.  You know, 20 years ago, women were not breastfeeding, and you wouldn’t see snugglies and slings around.  So, I think we’re going in the right direction.  That’s why we need the guidance; or why parents need the guidance is probably also due to their being out of touch for 1000s, or at least 100s, of years.  I have not investigated how long the harmful indoctrination has been around.  Definitely schooling didn’t help; taking children away from parents at a young age.  And, of course, our schools don’t teach parenting.  They teach all kinds of trivial irrelevant subjects that don’t do anything good for our life, like chemistry and history; instead of teaching psychology, parenting and the arts.  There are some alternative schools that do more of the arts and soften the blow.  But, I think the fact that there are many books is a sign of wanting to learn and wanting to improve, which is good.  Most of the books of course are not that helpful.  They are still on the same trend as the larger society.  But, in the middle there is Alfie Kohn, there is me, there are other people who are bringing in this new perspective of responding to nature, responding to the baby, to the child, to the teenager, rather than manipulating them.

Currently there’s a big movement underway to introduce children to the outdoors, almost monthly there’s a new website, a new product, new organizations that create websites or informational material, or gatherings to really motivate children to go outdoors.  Why do you think this trend is happening and why is it important? Do you feel that nature and outdoor activities offer children the opportunity to be more in tune with natural consequences?  Do you think that parents are less in tune themselves because they are more separate from nature?

 It’s kind of absurd that we have to make a program to be in nature.  I mean, we’re basically animals, beings that are supposed to grow up in nature. That is how we grow, that’s how we learn.  That’s how we learn consequences.  You know, what happens in the rain, in the snow, with an animal, when climbing, when things break, branches and plants.  So, I think being in touch with all of that is very vital for children.  Again, like I said before, they find their place in the world, their identity in the early years, through that connection with nature.  That’s why you see children a lot sitting in a sand pile, digging in the earth and climbing on trees.  I find in my counseling that when people live in the city, not in nature, and the children lack nature, the parents have a hard time with the children because it’s not the natural environment for the child.  They need the space.  They need to run.  They need to be on the earth with the fresh air and, with the sun.  I always say to these parents,–  “ Why don’t you go on vacation for a week?  Go camping or go to some cabin on the beach or in nature and see what happens”.   No exceptions; These parents come back from those vacations and say – … all the problems that I called you for… disappeared.  There were no problems.  And, you ask yourself – why does the child all of a sudden have no problems?  Of course, it’s also parenting… I’m not saying it’s the only thing. But for a moment all their problems disappear because the problems were just that they didn’t have the space and the connection that they needed in the first place.  Once they’re in nature, there’s no problem.  They’re not trapped in a house.  They’re not under stimulated. They’re not wondering what to do with their bodies.  In nature, they know what to do; To run, to dig, to see, to roll, to climb.  You know, it’s just so natural for them.  And, parents tell me that again and again and again.  It never surprises me anymore.

What do you think is good advice to give to parents who need to spend more time with their children?  Earlier you talked about how it’s not the specific aspect of spending time outdoors . Parents are spending less and less time with their children.  What would be advice to parents who say –  I just don’t have the time. How do we get these parents to be motivated to spend more time with their kids playing or discovering or asking questions, or spending time outdoors?

 It’s a political question too and, it’s a question related to all of society and to the women’s liberation movement.  My answer is not going to be fun for parents to hear.  I don’t want anybody hearing this to feel guilty because it’s not their fault, they don’t know.  They grew up into this climate and into this environment and culture.  But, ideally, parents should not have children unless they are really excited about having children and interested in making their life be about raising these children. It doesn’t mean making the child a center and not doing anything other than with the child.  It’s important to also live your life and for children to see that.  But, to not have enough time to meet the child’s basic need for a connection with a parent to me is not acceptable. The reason I say it’s not their fault and that it’s connected to the whole culture is because the whole culture… and this is a political thing… is that we’re all working more hours than we need to.  We’re all busy more than we need to be.  Because of the structure and the finances and the Federal Reserve and the government and how it’s all arranged.  You know, we’re being played with.

 And, the expectations that we put on ourselves. 

Let me be more specific. Specifically when parents call me and they say that they don’t have enough time, I actually help them make and have more time.  I help mothers stop working.  They don’t want to work.  That’s why I want to touch a little bit on women’s lib.  Women’s liberation didn’t liberate women.  As a mother, you don’t earn anything to do the hardest job on earth, raising children.  So, we haven’t become equal.  We’ve been fooled.  In fact, women’s liberation makes us even less equal psychologically, because we’re considered equal when we wear a suit and behave like men and work in the man’s world doing a job like men.  Which means, we are actually kind of saying that if we behave like men we’re equal, but when we’re a woman at home with a child, we’re not equal.  Can you see that?

Yeah, I read an article about that actually.  That the women’s liberation movement actually did a disservice to families,  and mother’s because it fought  for the equality of being treated like a man.  So we got to enter the work force but lost all family rights.  We work 12 hours a day and now we have preschools and daycares.

Yes, but it’s more than that.  According to some sources that I read it was intentional.  That the idea of women’s liberation was to collect double the tax and to separate the children from their mothers so that they could be more easily indoctrinated to be the consumers of the next generation.  So, it really didn’t make women equal, it just took them away from their womanhood into the man’s world.   I am just showing that as a culture, we have lost our women, in a way.  In order to be equal, we became more man.  Then, a lot of women who say that they have no time insist on working.  They want to work.  And, they live up to, again, politically dictated standards of life -- that without a second job they can’t survive.  So, what I do with parents is I work with them actually on their budget and lifestyle.  There are many families where both work to support a house that’s too big. They don’t need it.  There’s so much they don’t need.  And, there are all kinds of tricks.  You know, my family, we’re not rich.  And, I think we probably are in comparison to the majority of American families.  There’s probably $1000 a month in savings, just by making sensible decisions, like not buying anything in a plastic bottle for the bathrooms --no shampoos, no conditioners.  You know, it’s like there’s so much one can save when they discover that there is something that grows in nature that you can pluck and put as a shampoo or something for your skin.  Or, eating… you know, all these things can save so much.  I grew up in a country where, if you wanted to take a shower, 10 minutes before you went to the shower, you flipped a switch  to turn on the hot water just for that shower and turned it off when you’re done.  Or, we had another system where there was a gas thing right under the boiler, which was right there in the bathroom and you just turn it on, and heat turns it on when you turn the hot water on.  So, the fire is on, as long as you take a shower.  And, the boiler is so small so that all of it is just the amount you need.  And, you can shower as long as you want and it keeps heating it fast enough that you have hot water and when you turn it off, it’s over with.  So, we’re spending so much money keeping containers of hot water on… I hadn’t seen it before I came to the United States.  I find it bizarre -- what a waste.  And, there is solar in other countries, but we don’t use much solar energy.  All these containers of water can be on the roof in the sun.  This is a sunny country.  And, on and on and on.  There’s so much waste.  I’ve seen families living in New York and have such a happy life with fewer things.  With less technology.  With smaller space.  And with more love and more joy.  They’re on vacation.  And, I’ve seen families under my influence and without my influence who have quit working, both people, you know, got rid of everything and chose similar natural lives.  Grow their own food.  I’m not saying that everybody should do that.  Some people want to be classical musicians like my kids, or doctors, and they want the city influence and the cultural aspects.  Not everybody wants to be a farmer.  But, there are lots of options: even in the city I help people cut down their costs to what they think is something they can live with.  I see people who say they are poor who buy pizza on Sunday.  And, they go to the supermarket and their cart is full of ready made juices.  I say – you know, you can save $100 right there.  Juice your own oranges if you want juice.  And, juice is not that healthy anyways, it contains too much sugar.  But, if you want some juice, make it, instead of spending in this way.  Especially you should prioritize being with the children over all of those other luxuries.

I wanted to know what your thoughts are on technology and how the schooling system has affected children’s behavior and parents’ ability to relate to this.

We don’t have answers because it will be a few generations before we actually see what happens.  When we see a child sitting a lot and being in front of computers, our first reaction is to want to get that child out of there and put them in nature because that’s their true way of learning.  But, there’s also evolution and, what happens to the mind and how it affects the next generation.  I would say it will be 3 to 5 generations before we can have an idea of what would happen to humanity as a result of technology; what are the good aspects and what are the bad aspects. In spite of the fact that I did not let my children have computers and instead I sent them out to play in nature,  I also see teenagers and young adults that use computers a lot and make differences in a positive way.  But I  do want to qualify this: for the young age, I don’t recommend any of it. But, as they grow older, there’s no way to live in this society without the technology.  One good thing that I see is a change in their perspective on the world: when I grew up without technology, the world looked huge.  I could basically make an impact in my own family.  Or, as an adult a little bit in my community, in my class.  I look at my kids and they feel comfortable flying all over the world.  My 16 year old says – mom, you don’t have to come with me, I’m going to Switzerland, I’ll be fine.  And, there’s nobody picking him up, he needs to get off the plane, go find the train station and get on the train.  And, he’s not afraid of it.  He’s seen pictures.  He’s seen the map.  He can check where the train station is.  He can check what it looks like.  He’s been talking to people from different countries. Thats something that makes the world more friendly.

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 The internet, especially, has in it a gift of connecting the whole world as a family.  I can see the potential, if we don’t kill ourselves before we get there, that it can even stop our wars. How can I kill somebody in another country when I just talked to them the day before.  You know, it becomes all one. I have a friend in Brazil, a friend in Korea…  My sons see themselves as making a difference.  They don’t feel like they couldn’t make a difference globally. One will bring joy to this world through music.  Or, my oldest son is an activist and he has plans to make a difference. It doesn’t look to them as undoable because they can just post their opinion online in a way that people see and they are affected.  They have power.  And, they have connection.  And, they are talking to other people from all over the world.  That is the positive part later on.  With young children, I still see the technology is robbing them from getting to know themselves. They need to get to know themselves in relationship to nature.  So, that’s where I am totally with you.  Because how a child builds that self image, is me with my mommy first, and my daddy, or my sister or brother.  I need to have them and us in relationship to the beach and the tree and the plant that’s growing and the food that’s growing, that then I’m eating and how it happens and the rain and all this connectedness to the whole.  It cannot come when I sit in front of the computer and have all this, you know, looking at illusions.

It’s really experiencing them.

Children  learn to experience through actually touching things and experiencing it in the body. That’s why I teach parents that if  you want your child to not run into the street, you grab them physically.  Do the same in other areas.  If you want your child to stop hitting the baby, don’t just say – don’t hit that hurts.  Actually either pick the baby up, or pick that child up and give them a hug and say – I see that you have had enough and are frustrated and find a solution.  So, it’s really important that they learn through their bodies; that’s how nature designed it.  And, they see and smell and touch and experience and climb the trees and pick up their lettuce and experience the animals.  So, it’s not just some supermarket package that they get, but they have some idea of where it comes from and have a connection to the earth.  But, that doesn’t guarantee that they would stay like that.   They may become like my kids who grew up with nature, but now as they grow older, all three of them find themselves in a lifestyle that’s more city and computers and that’s because that’s where the planet is going.  It’s just a question of timing.  I recommend for young ages no TV and no computers at all.  Again, I don’t like dogma, so if somebody calls me and says – we have them watch 15 minutes a day of something, it gives me a break; I don’t tell them to stop it.  But, I do tell them it’s not going to stay 15 minutes and it’s going to become a struggle.  So, it’s much easier to just not have that TV there.  And, it’s much easier if you must have a computer at home, have it on the furthest away room that you call an office, or if you don’t have an extra room, a den or a bedroom that you don’t really go in during the day.  It’s just there for mommy and daddy to go and check email and stuff.  It’s not some toy that you go to and start searching online. I definitely discourage young children being involved with media and technology because they need to be out also for their health.  To observe the sun, the fresh air and not to destroy their spines like the rest of us are doing, and their eyes and their imagination.  The other thing is that the TV shortens the span of attention: when a child watches TV, there brain is more numb than when they are asleep.  That has been scientifically measured.  They are so passive, it doesn’t matter how good the program is. If they are learning something about nature, I’d rather they’d look at a book, or go to nature itself.  But, if they are learning about nature in Africa, you know, you can look at the book. When TV keeps changing the picture very quickly, the brain gets used to this constant passive stimulation and dependency on that and on constant change.

It was a pleasure to share with you the work of Naomi Aldort.  Please visit us again in a few days to read Part 2 of this interview.

Heidi Ahrens

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